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The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 1:52
**Light Spoilers** but seriously if you haven't seen it or at least heard all this by now what rock are you living under?

So the Last Jedi has come out on Blu Ray and I have to talk about how much I really despise this movie. Some background. I WAS a big Star Wars fan. As a little girl it was one of the first things my dad and I connected on. I still remember when he took me to see Revenge of the Sith and I remember all the times we sat and watched and The Clone wars together.

Dad and I saw the Force Awakens together and while I enjoyed TFA there were certain things I was little disappointed in. The last Jedi took all of those things and amplified it to %1000

So lets start. First Rey. Rey is the most bland boring Mary Sue character ever. In a universe filled with really interesting cool Female Jedi like Ahsoka Tano or Bastila Shan or Nomi Sunrider or Mara Jade they give us miss no personality who wins at everything without effort. I was actually really offended at how easily she just learns the force in the first movie. It took me years of dedication and practice to learn martial arts it didn't just happen. I WANT to like Rey and I was really hoping she would learn something from Luke but no. She learns NOTHING and continues her Miss Win Streak with no effort nothing earned. I don't think it speaks well to feminism to portray women effortlessly winning at everything.

Luke. Now this was disappointing. I've heard Kathleen Kennedy say that women couldn't relate to Luke because he was a man. Bullshit. I wanted to see Lukes story continue but what they gave us was just an insult. They really desecrated him. I wanted to see Jedi Master Luke tossing things around with the force and really for once getting to see him as a fully realized Jedi Master. Instead they gave us a sad miserable broken curmudgeon who ran away and hid. I could go on about Luke but I'll let dad do that.

The movies not so subtle terrible feminism. This movie has done NO favors for feminism. All its done is give an army of alt right trolls endless ammunition to throw at us and continue accusing us of wanting to be superior instead of equal. If you look at this movie that's EXACTLY the message they sent. Every single man in this movie is a dundering fool or a broken miserable person and every woman is ZOMG awesome. True feminism is men and women equal being equally competent it make us look so much better to be strong and intelligent and in charge across from other competent men. Black Panther and wonder woman are GREAT examples of doing this super well. All of the women in Black Panther were amazing strong and smart and the men were too, which just made the women look better. In Wonder Woman Diana is strong and great but the men she is surrounded with are too. They aren't made to look fools instead they help her, support her, and even teach her which makes her ultimately look better. Trevors final act inspires Diana. Leia looks less of a fool in this movie because everyone else is a bigger fool but make no mistake Leias plan was atrocious. Neither her nor Holdo were good leaders, neither one seemed like they really had a clue what they were doing. That pisses me off even more because Leia was really awesome in the original trilogy and I think really she got short changed in a big way in this movie. Her grand plan was to let everyone die and then go and trap them all in a corner with only one way out? Thats a pretty bad plan General. And Holdo. Uhg most incompetent leader ever. It's only through tearing Poe down that they build her up. Tearing men down is the worst way to build a strong female character.

Fin and Roses sub arc That whole sequence was long and boring and ultimately lead to nothing. I might have been able to excuse it if it had a meaningful pay off but it didn't. Gwendoline Christie another woman horribly short changed in  the worst feminist movie ever. You have this tall beautiful imposing woman who really could have done some amazing things just wasted. Wasted. Why even put her in? IN fact you could cut all of Fin and Roses parts in this movie and honestly NOTHING WOULD CHANGE its all capped off with the worst bit of bullshit Ive ever seen. Fin is about to make an incredibly noble sacrifice to save the alliance and Rose stops him to save her boyfriend. "Dont fight what you hate save what you love" Uhm... excuse me thats what he was about to do you dumb bitch. He was about to save the alliance he loved when you stopped him. You had no idea Luke was gonna show so you doomed the entire rebellion to death because you wanted to save your boy crush and stopped Fin from having any meaningful contribution to the movie.

I was really excited to have a female Jedi lead in TFA but they didn't deliver a fully realized character. I was hoping they would fix that in this movie but instead I got the worst bit of heavy handed feminism I've ever seen that completely missed the point. I want to be equal, not better, not worse, I want realistic portrayals of women as strong, powerful but flawed humans as real people not perfect goddesses. Hell even Wonder Woman who actually IS a goddess had a better more human portrayal.


Last edited by CelesChere on Wed 28 Mar - 5:01; edited 3 times in total
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 2:07
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I see what you're doing here. I see you baiting the hook. I'm not gonna bite. I know your trying to bait me into ranting about how much I hate this movie.
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 3:41
There were two things about this movie that I thought were completely ridiculous and made me groan at how awful they were.

First is Laura Dern's character. She's supposed to be an admiral, right? They're all on a ship that's fleeing a military base, right? Trying to get away from the big baddies in a hurry, right? So how come she's dressed like she's going to the opera? I kept expecting to see her drinking a cocktail. Where the hell is Sigourney Weaver when you need her? If you're gonna tell me that someone is an admiral, you'd better show me someone who's an admiral. Don't show me a middle aged socialite on her way to a girl's night out and tell me she's a military leader. Totally horrible casting and wardrobe decision for that character.

Worse yet was that they had a much better actress for this part already in the movie. In this same movie they cast the actress who plays....I don't remember her name, but she's in Game of Thrones as the female knight. She's in this movie as one of the bad guys...but you only hear her voice. Never see her cause she's always dressed up in that ridiculous silver getup. They could have cast HER as the admiral and stuck someone else in the chrome dome suit. Makes even less sense cause they killed off the character...probably. It shows her falling into the fire. Strange way to use an up-and-coming actress, but then again maybe she's not dead? Maybe the next movie will be called Big Blondie Strikes Back.

Second is the automation on the ships, or the lack thereof. This is a universe where they've got artificially intelligent robots, but they can't build ships with an auto-pilot? They have to have someone on the bridge holding the stick, even when the ship is going to be destroyed? This was, of course, a plot device to set things up so that Admiral Evening Wear could kamikaze the Imperial ships, but it was horribly weak.

I don't mind the Jedi chick. She's fun to look at. Willowy young women with British accents make my tingly bits tingle. The movie could have been nothing but her doing laser sword yoga in that nicely form-fitting outfit they put her in, and I'd have been perfectly happy to watch it. The whole business about her being some kind of instant jedi is pretty weak, but I can look past that cause it's fiction. There is no force, and so there are no rules that the movie is breaking. Who's to say that someone couldn't be a natural?

The movie is full of plot holes and ridiculousness, but it's just a movie, and not a serious one at that. It's a popcorn flick, not a dissertation. I wouldn't pay to see it again, but I didn't mind it overall.

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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 4:02
I can see everything you're saying. Much of it I hadn't read before, so kudos to you for your perspective. Have you watched "How The Last Jedi Should Have Ended"? You might enjoy that.

I wanted and still want Rey to be the offspring of the twins, but that's my "selfish" desire for consangs to have more representation.

I liked TFA. I see now what you're saying about Rey, but I found her to be appealing and is a good example of how women don't need to show skin to be very appealing (and mind you, I have no problem with women showing skin!). Who knows, maybe I'm just suckered in by the accent?

My initial reaction to TLJ was mostly disappointment. As a fan of the movies, I'd been "trained" to expect certain payoffs and reveals, and we didn't get them, at least not how I expected. But after thinking about it more and reading up on what the director/writers were trying to do (and not being tense with anticipation) I enjoyed subsequent viewings more. Now I read your perspective and I think your points have a lot of merit.

I'm hoping that everything you and I didn't like are redeemed by Episode IX. With the right writing, directing, and acting, it's possible.

Did you notice the Jedi texts were not destroyed but were on the MF? That indicates to me Rey may be undergoing a learning curve.

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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 4:53
Mr Reese wrote:I see what you're doing here. I see you baiting the hook. I'm not gonna bite. I know your trying to bait me into ranting about how much I hate this movie.
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OtherHans wrote:There were two things about this movie that I thought were completely ridiculous and made me groan at how awful they were.

First is Laura Dern's character.  She's supposed to be an admiral, right?  They're all on a ship that's fleeing a military base, right?  Trying to get away from the big baddies in a hurry, right?  So how come she's dressed like she's going to the opera?  I kept expecting to see her drinking a cocktail.  Where the hell is Sigourney Weaver when you need her?  If you're gonna tell me that someone is an admiral, you'd better show me someone who's an admiral.  Don't show me a middle aged socialite on her way to a girl's night out and tell me she's a military leader.  Totally horrible casting and wardrobe decision for that character.  

Worse yet was that they had a much better actress for this part already in the movie.  In this same movie they cast the actress who plays....I don't remember her name, but she's in Game of Thrones as the female knight.  She's in this movie as one of the bad guys...but you only hear her voice.  Never see her cause she's always dressed up in that ridiculous silver getup.  They could have cast HER as the admiral and stuck someone else in the chrome dome suit.  Makes even less sense cause they killed off the character...probably.  It shows her falling into the fire.  Strange way to use an up-and-coming actress, but then again maybe she's not dead?  Maybe the next movie will be called Big Blondie Strikes Back.

Second is the automation on the ships, or the lack thereof.  This is a universe where they've got artificially intelligent robots, but they can't build ships with an auto-pilot?  They have to have someone on the bridge holding the stick, even when the ship is going to be destroyed?  This was, of course, a plot device to set things up so that Admiral Evening Wear could kamikaze the Imperial ships, but it was horribly weak.

I don't mind the Jedi chick.  She's fun to look at.  Willowy young women with British accents make my tingly bits tingle.  The movie could have been nothing but her doing laser sword yoga in that nicely form-fitting outfit they put her in, and I'd have been perfectly happy to watch it.  The whole business about her being some kind of instant jedi is pretty weak, but I can look past that cause it's fiction.  There is no force, and so there are no rules that the movie is breaking.  Who's to say that someone couldn't be a natural?  

The movie is full of plot holes and ridiculousness, but it's just a movie, and not a serious one at that.  It's a popcorn flick, not a dissertation.  I wouldn't pay to see it again, but I didn't mind it overall.


The blonde woman you are talking about is the criminally underused Gwendoline Christie who I mentioned in my op. Its such a shame how they wasted her.
The redeeming part of Holdo's kamikaze flight, as silly as it is that they didn't just give the job to a droid, is well... it rids us of her so we don't have to see her anymore. So I'm ok with that bit of silliness because it means Holdo is dead. I honestly didn't blame Poe for his mutiny. I was kind of on his side. Why is she letting the entire fleet die? That's not a brilliant plan.

There sort of is some rules to the force though. See its established it takes a long time to learn to be a Jedi. Anakin was the most powerful Jedi ever and it took him 10 years to become a Jedi. Even being the most powerful Jedi ever and having ten years of training he was still no match for Dooku in their first encounter and got his ass handed to him. Luke was the offspring of the most powerful Jedi ever and it took him two movies and a training montage with Yoda to become a competent Jedi and he was still no match for the emperor. But Rey learns the force is real and ten minutes later shes force tricking people (A power she didn't even know existed) and beating trained Jedi knights...There is no dramatic tension now as we know Rey is zomg awesome and she will win.

They tried to make this movie a dissertation about the failure of heros, war profiteering? (really) and girl power, and it just horribly failed at it.

FullMarriageEquality wrote:I can see everything you're saying. Much of it I hadn't read before, so kudos to you for your perspective. Have you watched "How The Last Jedi Should Have Ended"? You might enjoy that.

I wanted and still want Rey to be the offspring of the twins, but that's my "selfish" desire for consangs to have more representation.

I liked TFA. I see now what you're saying about Rey, but I found her to be appealing and is a good example of how women don't need to show skin to be very appealing (and mind you, I have no problem with women showing skin!). Who knows, maybe I'm just suckered in by the accent?

My initial reaction to TLJ was mostly disappointment. As a fan of the movies, I'd been "trained" to expect certain payoffs and reveals, and we didn't get them, at least not how I expected. But after thinking about it more and reading up on what the director/writers were trying to do (and not being tense with anticipation) I enjoyed subsequent viewings more. Now I read your perspective and I think your points have a lot of merit.

I'm hoping that everything you and I didn't like are redeemed by Episode IX. With the right writing, directing, and acting, it's possible.

Did you notice the Jedi texts were not destroyed but were on the MF? That indicates to me Rey may be undergoing a learning curve.
Do you know what this is? DO you know what this is? Its a trap! OMG I loved the Hishe. It would have been a much better movie lol. I did notice the texts but Luke is gone so we've been cheated out of seeing Master Luke take on an apprentice. Even if she is trained who is going to do it? I think theres a 90% chance we will see force ghost Luke unless Disney is tired of all the shade Mark Hamil threw at the movie before it came out. But that's not the same. Rey had a lot of potential I wanted to like her I really did especially since I loved Bastila Shan and Nomi Sunrider from the Knights of the Old Republic and I loved the drama between Jacen and Jaina solo. I was really hoping they were going to do a take on Jacen and Jaina solo with Kylo Ren and Rey I was rooting for her to be Luke and Mara Jades daughter. Or a reincarnation of Anakin/other nexus of the force and Snoke was Darth Plaugeis. Snoke being Plaugeis was the best of the fan theories and better then what they gave us. I appreciate her not showing skin but Leia and Amidala never showed skin either so its not new for Star Wars. Although I would take a woman showing some skin and being a flawed fully realized character that has to struggle and earn her position, to someone showing no skin who earns nothing.  Wonder Woman showed skin and she was still awesome.
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 5:15
There is also the problem with the hyper space ramming thing . That one scene changes every thing about space battles and unless they just ignore it there is no going back. If the first order builds a new super weapon the heroes can strap a hyper drive on to a asteroid and boom instant win.

The whole Rose Finn sub plat was just horrible. It adds nothing to the plot, goes nowhere, and really show they they have no ideas what to do with anybody but Rey. The whole thing is just one plot whole, how long are they on the planet plus travel time to and from there was apparently only like 2 hours.

Plus Holdo's plan was horrible. let run away till we have one ship left and sneak away from that. Oh and we won't tell anybody about this. Why not have each ship ram the enemy when they tun out of fuel. After you will lose the ship no matter what might as well take a few enemies with you. Or you could split the fleet up they cant track all of you.
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 5:43
nenuser1223 wrote:There is also the problem with the hyper space ramming thing .  That one scene changes every thing about space battles and unless they just ignore it there is no going back.  If the first order builds a new super weapon the heroes can strap a hyper drive on to a asteroid  and boom instant win.

The whole Rose Finn sub plat was just horrible.  It adds nothing to the plot, goes nowhere, and really show they they have no ideas what to do with anybody but Rey.  The whole thing is just one plot whole, how long are they on the planet plus travel time to and from there was apparently only like 2 hours.

Plus Holdo's plan was horrible. let run away till we have one ship left and sneak away from that. Oh and we won't tell anybody about this.  Why not have each ship ram the enemy when they tun out of fuel.  After you will lose the ship no matter what might as well take a few enemies with you.  Or you could split the fleet up they cant track all of you.  
I thought this too, Why didn't they scatter the fleet to all directions of the galaxy? They wouldn't be able to track them all.

The times didn't seem to align well. It seemed like Rey spent at least a few days on Ach To but the whole canto blight sub thing took no more then 18 hours? Theres so many things to hate about this movie. And lets leave the slave children and save the horse monster things... Fangirl Rage
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 5:56
CelesChere wrote:
nenuser1223 wrote:There is also the problem with the hyper space ramming thing .  That one scene changes every thing about space battles and unless they just ignore it there is no going back.  If the first order builds a new super weapon the heroes can strap a hyper drive on to a asteroid  and boom instant win.

The whole Rose Finn sub plat was just horrible.  It adds nothing to the plot, goes nowhere, and really show they they have no ideas what to do with anybody but Rey.  The whole thing is just one plot whole, how long are they on the planet plus travel time to and from there was apparently only like 2 hours.

Plus Holdo's plan was horrible. let run away till we have one ship left and sneak away from that. Oh and we won't tell anybody about this.  Why not have each ship ram the enemy when they tun out of fuel.  After you will lose the ship no matter what might as well take a few enemies with you.  Or you could split the fleet up they cant track all of you.  
I thought this too, Why didn't they scatter the fleet to all directions of the galaxy? They wouldn't be able to track them all.

The times didn't seem to align well. It seemed like Rey spent at least a few days on Ach To but the whole canto blight sub thing took no more then 18 hours? Theres so many things to hate about this movie. And lets leave the slave children and save the horse monster things... Fangirl Rage

OH yeah the slave thing is another real bad problem, that just them the character really despicable.
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 6:06
And why does Anakin never show up as a force ghjost to straighten out his Grandson? Seems to me like this all could have been avoided with one visit from Anakin telling Kylo "You know being Darth Vader really didn't work out too well for me. I lost my wife never knew my kids got imprisoned in a horrible walking Iron Lung if I could go back I'd do it all over again. I did finally kill the emperor in the end. Maybe you should go kill Snoke with your Uncle and not destroy the Jedi." again if they wanted a fallen Skywalker/Solo they should have taken From Jacen's story his fall made more sense then "I idolize my grandfather but ignore the big change of heart he had at the end of his life"
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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 19:42
I'm going to trust that you die-hard fans will let me know if anything in this thread needs modding. Smile

ED: Okay, there are one mod and one admin already here. I can go back to sleep, then. Smile

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Re: The last Jedi

on Wed 28 Mar - 20:33
Oh some really interesting discussion going on here!
I liked some things about TLJ, and disliked others. In-universe stuff, yes Holdo's hyperspace kamikaze implies things, like "why aren't FTL-kill vehicles everywhere?" They could write it so it's not a problem, but currently it's left unanswered. Idk why their ships don't have automation, but it's consistent within their universe. The Trade Federation did it, but not other groups. My guess is, maybe it's socially frowned upon? that may not seem smart but it's not like social conventions don't influence military thought. But yes from an out-universe perspective, people don't relate as easily with robots (unless it's WALL-E ^_^ ) so nixing automation makes dramatic story-telling easier.

Rey being a Mary Sue, welllll seems like depends on who you ask? She's learned the Force quickly, I think this may be because of writer oversight though. Like, Star Wars isn't new, so fans already know what Jedi mind tricks are. Abrams may have written her without considering training because he's used to seeing Jedi do stuff, or may have thought a training arc wouldn't have worked for his story. Regardless, whenever characters just do stuff without personal effort, it usually cheapens it.
I liked that Luke Skywalker didn't kick ass. I was worried he would because there was fan expectations for it, but really that's not the Jedi philosophy. His tricking Kylo Ren demonstrated his abilities while remaining true to what he learned in RotJ.
But, I didn't feel it so believable that he nearly killed Kylo in his sleep. Or that he became a pessimistic recluse afterwards. I understand they were deconstructing his character, which isn't so bad, but their approach didn't feel right. That he says Kylo's power should've scared him & Rey's does, felt like 'propping up'. Not that Jedi masters should be fearless though!
I liked that he wasn't a perfect wise-old sage. That could've been redundant and wouldn't have felt much like Luke either.

Fin & Roses arc was about persistence, even after failure. But... I did feel it was sluggish, and felt like a detour. It wasn't a bad concept but maybe could've been executed better?
Rose saving Fin is messy. He *was* trying to save the Resistance, and she couldn't have known they'd find another way. Her message was more about why he was doing what he was doing, rather than what. In-universe... it wasn't a good idea. As a viewer it felt like a random forgettable parable, even though I agree with its message ("why" we do things should be from love, not hate), it felt plastered on & spelled out.
But. Rose's character was good & I hope we see her again in the last movie. Her & Fin make a good team!

Admiral Holdo's dress didn't bother me; again this isn't our world, they don't have our dress conventions. Her plan was having shuttles sneak away to that world, I forget its name, but they'd go undetected & after the (abandoned) ship was destroyed, the First Order would leave because they didn't know the planet was there. Then the Resistance could shuttle off elsewhere. It wasn't a bad plan, considering their limited options. It wasn't her tactical mindset that was lacking, but her leadership.
Like Celes said, Poe had every reason to be concerned. In my experience good leadership isn't about telling people "do this, do that, just do it". That *can* work, but then you have people like Poe who understandably want to know why, especially when things look grim. All he could see was "we'll keep running until we're out of fuel". He could've trusted her experience, that she had a plan, and wasn't sharing details for security reasons; that was my assumption, but assumptions can be unnecessarily risky.
When he voiced his concern to her & she shut him down, that was a mistake. Not only did it alienate one of her pilots (who likely could be trusted with secure information, given his history), but she missed that his concern was (probably) representative of many people who hadn't said anything. If he didn't feel he could talk with his commanding officer about it, then he'd voice his concerns with his comrades, who may be sympathetic, which divides their crew. So it didn't surprise me that he found cohorts to help him mutiny, I kinda expected it.
What's worse is, had Poe known about her plan, Fin & Rose may have not had to leave on their errand. They wouldn't have met the War Profiteer (idr his name...), who wouldn't have exposed Holdo's plan to the First Order. Which means Luke wouldn't have had to astral project to stall for time & overexert himself. Snoke would still be dead, though his ship wouldn't be broken & Phasma wouldn't have died.
She couldn't have known that would happen, so that's not so much her fault.

Kylo killing Snoke was good writing. It was a little predictable for me but still a nice change ^_^ and that Rey isn't anybody special was nice too. Though I feel her character development has been slow. But I totally agree WW was way better about this!

and LOL Unowen, I think we're good. I hope so!
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Re: The last Jedi

on Thu 29 Mar - 0:11
Another thing I just thought of. Reylo. OK this is the creepiest weirdest implied "Romance" We are supposed to be showing Rey as a strong central figure yet in this movie she is reduced to a romantic foil and driver for Kylo Ren. She feels ancillary to his story rather then the focus of her own. Then we get the romance thing. I mean. Girl this dude kidnapped,tortured and mentally raped you, murdered your father figure in front of you and nearly killed your bestie in front of you a couple of days ago..and now your gonna go and what save him with the power of your love? First off women being a vehicle for a mans redemption is an awful trope that needs to die second she has no reason to have any sympathy for this guy. It's not like Hes her father like in Lukes case. They have no family connection he's just a genocidal mass murdering space nazi that tortured and abused her and murdered her "father" and nearly killer her friend. Another reason I'm beginning to really loath Rey
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Re: The last Jedi

on Thu 29 Mar - 2:13
CelesChere wrote: I could go on about Luke but I'll let dad do that.


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sleepingrain wrote:Oh some really interesting discussion going on here!
I liked some things about TLJ, and disliked others. In-universe stuff, yes Holdo's hyperspace kamikaze implies things, like "why aren't FTL-kill vehicles everywhere?" They could write it so it's not a problem, but currently it's left unanswered. Idk why their ships don't have automation, but it's consistent within their universe. The Trade Federation did it, but not other groups. My guess is, maybe it's socially frowned upon? that may not seem smart but it's not like social conventions don't influence military thought. But yes from an out-universe perspective, people don't relate as easily with robots (unless it's WALL-E ^_^ ) so nixing automation makes dramatic story-telling easier.

Rey being a Mary Sue, welllll seems like depends on who you ask? She's learned the Force quickly, I think this may be because of writer oversight though. Like, Star Wars isn't new, so fans already know what Jedi mind tricks are. Abrams may have written her without considering training because he's used to seeing Jedi do stuff, or may have thought a training arc wouldn't have worked for his story. Regardless, whenever characters just do stuff without personal effort, it usually cheapens it.
I liked that Luke Skywalker didn't kick ass. I was worried he would because there was fan expectations for it, but really that's not the Jedi philosophy. His tricking Kylo Ren demonstrated his abilities while remaining true to what he learned in RotJ.
But, I didn't feel it so believable that he nearly killed Kylo in his sleep. Or that he became a pessimistic recluse afterwards. I understand they were deconstructing his character, which isn't so bad, but their approach didn't feel right. That he says Kylo's power should've scared him & Rey's does, felt like 'propping up'. Not that Jedi masters should be fearless though!
I liked that he wasn't a perfect wise-old sage. That could've been redundant and wouldn't have felt much like Luke either.

Fin & Roses arc was about persistence, even after failure. But... I did feel it was sluggish, and felt like a detour. It wasn't a bad concept but maybe could've been executed better?
Rose saving Fin is messy. He *was* trying to save the Resistance, and she couldn't have known they'd find another way. Her message was more about why he was doing what he was doing, rather than what. In-universe... it wasn't a good idea. As a viewer it felt like a random forgettable parable, even though I agree with its message ("why" we do things should be from love, not hate), it felt plastered on & spelled out.
But. Rose's character was good & I hope we see her again in the last movie. Her & Fin make a good team!

Admiral Holdo's dress didn't bother me; again this isn't our world, they don't have our dress conventions. Her plan was having shuttles sneak away to that world, I forget its name, but they'd go undetected & after the (abandoned) ship was destroyed, the First Order would leave because they didn't know the planet was there. Then the Resistance could shuttle off elsewhere. It wasn't a bad plan, considering their limited options. It wasn't her tactical mindset that was lacking, but her leadership.
Like Celes said, Poe had every reason to be concerned. In my experience good leadership isn't about telling people "do this, do that, just do it". That *can* work, but then you have people like Poe who understandably want to know why, especially when things look grim. All he could see was "we'll keep running until we're out of fuel". He could've trusted her experience, that she had a plan, and wasn't sharing details for security reasons; that was my assumption, but assumptions can be unnecessarily risky.
When he voiced his concern to her & she shut him down, that was a mistake. Not only did it alienate one of her pilots (who likely could be trusted with secure information, given his history), but she missed that his concern was (probably) representative of many people who hadn't said anything. If he didn't feel he could talk with his commanding officer about it, then he'd voice his concerns with his comrades, who may be sympathetic, which divides their crew. So it didn't surprise me that he found cohorts to help him mutiny, I kinda expected it.
What's worse is, had Poe known about her plan, Fin & Rose may have not had to leave on their errand. They wouldn't have met the War Profiteer (idr his name...), who wouldn't have exposed Holdo's plan to the First Order. Which means Luke wouldn't have had to astral project to stall for time & overexert himself. Snoke would still be dead, though his ship wouldn't be broken & Phasma wouldn't have died.
She couldn't have known that would happen, so that's not so much her fault.

Kylo killing Snoke was good writing. It was a little predictable for me but still a nice change ^_^ and that Rey isn't anybody special was nice too. Though I feel her character development has been slow. But I totally agree WW was way better about this!

and LOL Unowen, I think we're good. I hope so!


You make a good point about Lukes non violence. In ROTJ he ultimately wins by laying his weapon down not through physically defeating the emperor. Its his hope compassion, kindness, and love that ultimately win and inspire Vader to turn. Lukes compassion, his hope and his love are all things that Rian Johnson tossed aside in this abomination of Luke. All of the things that made Luke better then the other Jedi were tossed. When Obi Wan and Yoda told him there was no redemption for Vader Luke didn't believe them. His attachment to his father was derided as a weakness but ultimately saved the universe. Where was that compassion, love and hope for Ben? This is a guy who saw the best in a mass murdering space nazi but couldn't see it in his nephew? IN his sisters child? Someone he's known from birth who hadn't even done ANYTHING yet. Luke lost everything in the span of a few days in ANH His foster parents, His mentor, his best friend (Biggs) all die in ANH and Luke stays optimistic, he keeps the best parts of himself. How did that guy give up and go and hide as a broken old man? Mark Hamil was dead right when he said "This is not my Luke." Luke throughout the ot shows a dedication and love for his friends and his family on multipe instances risking everything to save them. It's Luke who convinces Han to save Leai in ANH, Luke interrupts his training to save his friends in ESB and he Risks everything to save Han and later takes the biggest risk anyone can take and hands himself over to Vader to try and save both his friends on Endor and His father but now he is going to turn his back to those same people? He's going to abandon them and fleet for 30 years? Then refuse to help his sister when she desperately needs him? Then he tells Leia I'm not here to save your son... excuse me what? Why save Vader and not Ben? It's just not at all consistent with what we know about Luke. Its a fundamental failure to understand the character and what makes Luke such a powerful and unique hero.

Kylo Ren vs Anakin Skywalker.

Kylo is far worse a person then Anakin was. I know it may seem crazy but hear me out.

Anakin was born a slave the lowest of the low. He had no exposure to democracy before the Jedi came. Here's the important bit. The republic the symbol of democracy didn't care about him. He didn't have a good exposure to democracy all he saw was a system that failed to protect him, failed to protect Amidala. the Jedi didn't come to save him and they only did because of what he could do for them. The Jedi didn't free Anakin he traded slavery to Watto for slavery to the Jedi Order. The Jedi didn't care about saving his mother. They repeatedly told him to forget about his mother she wasn't important. The Jedi demeaned, belittled and dehumanized Anakin at every turn. It's especially apparent how badly they treated him in the Clone Wars show. He was never validated as a person by the Jedi. He was always a tool for the order but never trusted. But guess who did validate and trust him? guess who did support him? The emperor. While the jedi were busy constantly telling Anakin he wasn't good enough the Emperor was telling Anakin he was better then the Jedi. When the Jedi didn't trust Anakin the Emperor entrusted Anakin with the most important missions, entrusted him to be his eyes and ears on the council and ultimately trusted him with his darkest secret. The Jedi refused to make him a master despite him pretty much singlehandedly winning the clone wars and training up a padwan to full knight hood whom the Jedi drove out of the order with their arrogance pride and hubris. Anakin had no frame of reference for what the sith truly were. He didn't know the emperor was playing both sides of the civil war and no one had seen the sith openly in thousands of years.  But he did see the decay and moral corruption of the republic. A republic that failed to protect him, his mother, his wife, and the other slaves. The emperor wasn't openly space Hitler when Anakin made his choice. At the time Anakin saw a failed republic, a Jedi order that didn't care about him, his mother the other slaves or the woman he loved and one he couldn't be honest with, a choice between a man who had treated him terribly and didn't trust him (Mace Windu) and a mentor who had up till that point been nothing but kind to him and trusted him and mostly importantly understood his love for his wife and offered to save her something the Jedi would never do. By this point tyranny is no worse to Anakin then democracy has already been and the sith offered an emotional validation the Jedi didn't

Kylo Ren on the other hand was born in the aftermath of the Siths Tyranny. He has seen first hand the destruction the Sith wrought thats not something Anakin really saw until he was in the middle of it doing it. Keylo Ren saw this and said you know what? I like it. I like the Space Nazis, I want to blow up planets bigger and badder then my grandfather. He was born into privilege the son of decorated war heroes, political leaders and related to the only Jedi Master in the galaxy. He had a legacy of tremendous force power. He didn't spend a life in servitude to others. He had all the evidence of how terrible the Space Nazis were, and he was born into privilege and he looked at the Space Nazis and said you now what I like this. Then because Luke was like "Yea don't really think this is great kid may want to change your mind here" Yea they handled that badly with Luke but Luke didn't ultimately try to kill Ben but he still flips out murders everyone and runs off to join the Space Nazis. When Kylo Ren kills Snoke he does it so he can take his place as Space Hitler, When Vader kills the Emperor he did it to save his son. When Anakin attacked Amidala he did it in a fit of passion and relented before he killed her. Remember she died of a broken heart Rolling Eyes Ben premeditated the murder of his father because he really didn't want that call to the light. You know what maybe Luke WAS right in going after Ben LOL.
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Re: The last Jedi

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