Share
View previous topicGo downView next topic
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

the UK has left the EU?!

on Sat 25 Jun - 8:50
what the title says!
what are your thoughts about it? how do you feel about this?
it certainly is an... interesting change if nothing else.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 1017
Join date : 2016-04-14
Location : UK
View user profilehttps://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Sat 25 Jun - 20:37
I think it's brilliant, having been one of the many who voted for precisely that to happen. The trouble with the EU is that it puts countries into a straitjacket where we couldn't even set out own immigration policies, as a result we've had wave after wave of immigrants largely from the Islamic world, and when there is a housing shortage and job shortages it causes resentment on both sides as well as a whole lot of cultural tension. A whopping 75% of law was directly dictated by unelected Eurocrats in Brussels, with out elected government only being able to make 25% of law. This was undemocratic. To make matters worse, we were paying far more into the EU than we were getting out of it.

We were threatened with 'dire consequences' if we voted out, but we voted out anyway. Those consequences are likely to be the EU making it expensive to trade with member countries and so on. It seems another recession may be unavoidable because of this, but rather a recession that will pass than permanent enslavement to the EU... we have our country back, that's what matters. In the long term I think that we will be far better off outside the EU, especially if we can become more self sufficient.

David Cameron will be stepping down as Prime Minister, so it's a matter of who will replace him. Personally I think they should call another general election, but they probably won't do that until 2020 when one is due anyway. I think a pigs ear was made of the election last year to be honest, because of the way that MPs are elected. The party I vote for, UKIP, had 12.5% of the votes, which if it worked on proportional representation should have translated to 83 MPs, making it the third largest party. However it doesn't work that way and we had only ONE seat... because in the current system it goes on winning areas. So for instance, if in one region the Tories win, then the tories get a fixed number of seats for winning that area, and it doesn't matter if the runner up is only a tiny number of votes behind. I think they should tally up the total votes for each party nationally and then distribute the seats accordingly.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Mon 27 Jun - 1:51

Yes that sounds like a First-Past-the-Post system; it has some drawbacks compared to a proportional representation.
A recession does look likely, though as long as parliament is up to it it should smooth out. Hopefully it'll result in greater resiliency for the long-run. It's a shame Cameron felt the need to exit like that, though. Another general election would be the most sensible thing.

The EU is an interesting idea, but that the EU is determining that much of the law is really suffocating. If they don't get their act together it's not going to last. Putting stuff in and getting little out only works if it's a long-term investment, but the way they've been handling finances makes it look shaky as though the investment will ever pay off. It's mostly Germany and France now, and of those two especially Germany.

Multiculturalism is hard to balance. I love the idea, but it's not without its trade-offs. It can get pretty ugly!

Some people want to call a revote, though even if that happens it doesn't seem like it would change things. There is some irony in it though; Farage was the one who suggested it as an option (if it was a close vote), before the numbers came in.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 596
Join date : 2016-04-15
View user profilehttp://marriage-equality.blogspot.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Mon 27 Jun - 6:11
Is there anything stopping the UK from establishing agreements with certain EU countries that would be mutually beneficial? Does the EU prevent members from doing that?

Here in the US, things like the North American Free Trade Agreement made it easier for companies in the US to close down operations, such as factories, in the US and open in Mexico and still sell the goods and services to the people in the US.

I understand some economists can make the argument that this is a net benefit, but it is still highly disruptive for someone like a US citizen who loses their middle-class job and has to find something new. Sure, their favorite brand of whatever might avoid raising prices for more years and their stock portfolio might get better dividends, but they need a good job. Meanwhile, it's great for the people in Mexico who have a chance at a better job.
Senior Member
Posts : 103
Join date : 2016-04-26
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Mon 27 Jun - 8:52
FullMarriageEquality wrote:Is there anything stopping the UK from establishing agreements with certain EU countries that would be mutually beneficial? Does the EU prevent members from doing that?

Yes, it does.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 1017
Join date : 2016-04-14
Location : UK
View user profilehttps://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Mon 27 Jun - 10:02
The EU is trying to be a superpower in which whole nations are mere provinces, that is NOT what people want. We would have had no problem being an EU member if it was basically a trade treaty, but it is far more sinister than that. It has gradually undermined the democracies of Europe by attaching terms and conditions to membership which include which laws are able to be passed, such as immigration policy for a start. The EU are going to now make it extremely difficult for us to trade with it at reasonable prices, thus punishing us financially for daring to defy its will. Oh well, there are plenty of other nations around the world we can trade with.

FME, your North American Trade Union is basically EU lite... it's another attempt at power consolidation at a far earlier stage of development. It's ultimate aim is the consolidation of the USA, Canada and Mexico into a single bloc with a singe currency, the Amero. Just like the EU in the 70s claimed that it was a trade agreement between European countries. Don't be fooled by this. Trade is it's cover story, it's really about the centralization of power and usurping the democratic rights of countries and citizens. Anything that throws a spanner into the works of such organizations is a good thing, and Brexit has done that here Smile

The ultimate aim of these people is a one world government, which they cannot achieve without first consolidating continents into a small number of vast superpowers as a stepping stone. Think about it, you cannot consolidate hundreds of countries with hundreds of different currencies into a global power, but you can if there are four or so huge superpowers.

Senior Member
Posts : 103
Join date : 2016-04-26
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Mon 27 Jun - 23:45
Free trade is good because markets are both expanded and made more efficient. There are of course winners and losers as a result, this is the nature of creative destruction. Producers who cannot adapt will perish, those who can will succeed.

Had the EEC remained a free trade agreement among sovereign nations, instead of morphing into the tyranny of the EU, then populist movements throughout Europe would not be clamouring to leave it.

I for one would love to see the UK become a part of NAFTA, which really is just a free trade agreement. Sadly the political climate in the US is such that this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Tue 28 Jun - 3:40
If you were going to make a one-world government, that would be the way to do it. A lot of countries have the tendencies to form an alliance to give them an edge over those that don't. So, there is a certain gravitation to forming superblocs.
That being said, it feels more likely that it would end up becoming two polarized world governments (you can guess who would go where!). And the logistics might not be ready for that kind of government, though maybe in a couple of generations that could be resolved.
it's all my own conjecture though S: so a grain of salt
It never hurts to keep your eyes open.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 1017
Join date : 2016-04-14
Location : UK
View user profilehttps://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Tue 28 Jun - 18:18
OtherHans wrote:Free trade is good because markets are both expanded and made more efficient.  There are of course winners and losers as a result, this is the nature of creative destruction.  Producers who cannot adapt will perish, those who can will succeed.

Had the EEC remained a free trade agreement among sovereign nations, instead of morphing into the tyranny of the EU, then populist movements throughout Europe would not be clamouring to leave it.

I for one would love to see the UK become a part of NAFTA, which really is just a free trade agreement.  Sadly the political climate in the US is such that this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

True, but the EU was never meant to be just a free trade agreement. People have been lied to over multiple decades, free trade is the basis on which it was sold to us, but that was never the agenda, consolidation of power was. If they'd told the truth from the start in the years following WW2 there would have been an immediate public outrage at the very suggestion of a centralized European government. They thought if they did it slowly enough nobody would object! Luckily we got out in time. I am highly suspicious of any 'free trade agreement', and I suspect that NAFTA might be another EU in the making in the future, perhaps not now, but in 30-50 years time. The EU was just like that when it was first introduced. I'd warn against any country joining those kinds of organisations for that reason.

Another point is that these free trade agreements were never needed before, at any point in human history, and goods have been shipped around the world for centuries. I'd be far more in favour of individual treaties between individual countries based on import/export needs. If these trade treaties are numerous then nobody has control over all of them. Decentralization of power, both in terms of government and in terms of trade and stuff will be better for everyone.

Sleepingrain, I agree that a bloc has more power, but it is possible to have a bloc of strong countries with similar values, strong economies and a history of peace and cooperation WITHOUT it having to resort to loss of sovereignty. Such blocs would be able to team up if there was a common threat to all of them, but that would be more like a temporary treaty of cooperation in times of war, with each country retaining the right to govern itself.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Tue 28 Jun - 22:58
It is possible, yes. Desirable too. Organizations, even loose temporary ones, seem to have difficult resisting the iron law of oligarchy though.
That being said, it can be resisted, and should be resisted.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 1017
Join date : 2016-04-14
Location : UK
View user profilehttps://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Tue 28 Jun - 23:50
sleepingrain wrote:It is possible, yes. Desirable too. Organizations, even loose temporary ones, seem to have difficult resisting the iron law of oligarchy though.
That being said, it can be resisted, and should be resisted.

For some people, enough power is never enough, they always want more. Unfortunately it is these types that almost invariably end up getting power, and they misuse it and don't give a damn who they tread on or how many people they hurt in the process. Many people enter politics with the best of intentions, both on the right and the left, but those who aren't willing to sacrifice their principals to toe the party line will not progress much further than being a local MP. Ditto for people who want to make genuine change to give power back to the people and away from politicians, those higher up see such people as a threat, thus they don't progress either. So what you get is the main parties all having people with psychopathic tendencies right at the top, and normal people right at the bottom. Not always, but a lot of the time.

I think that it should go much much further than decentralizing power to the level of countries, power of any kind should be decentralized right down to the lowest possible level, to the individual where possible. National government should be cut back very drastically, restricted to a few essentials only. Most of the power should go to the local councils, not the national government.

Let me give an example of what I mean, within the last few years my city was given a grant and had a new bus station built, the money came from central government. Nobody was asked if we wanted or needed one. As a result the new one was built... a third too small for purpose. This has resulted in many buses being delayed and some routes being put on less often in order to accommodate the undersized station. Who should have made the decision on whether a new one was even needed, or how large it should be, or the design of it? I'd say the bus drivers, being the ones with the greatest experience of how things work in practice. In the sort of system I would be suggesting, the bus drivers would get to vote on if a new one was needed, if they voted no then the money could be used elsewhere (like the hospital or schools), if they voted yes, then they would get to have a hand in designing it. Not only would such a system save wasting money and time, it would give people a real say in what happens in their daily lives.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 596
Join date : 2016-04-15
View user profilehttp://marriage-equality.blogspot.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Wed 29 Jun - 5:31
I tend to like having a choice. I see that extending to governments. If you can't flee a government to choose another by moving, I can see how that could get really bad. So I can see why people might be legitimately wary or the EU or similar organizations.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Wed 29 Jun - 7:44
Yes that's very true FME! once they lock the doors, things always get ugly. Even when they start using some kind of leverage, and
it's not fully ironclad, it's still good cause to be wary.

That is a waste of resources Jane S: it certainly sounds like municipal bureaucracy, that sort of nonsense happens a lot. Just to
think how much could be saved if everything could be ran efficiently... whether it's possible or not it's neat to think about!

random notes about political theory (skip if boring):
The system you suggest Jane sounds something like municipalist American Libertarianism using direct democracy when possible, and with some shades of
technocracy. It's interesting; technocracy never quite got a fair day, and having it democratically moderated would do a lot to
reduce some of it's flaws.
If any of that guesswork is incorrect please let me know!
avatar
Admin
Posts : 1017
Join date : 2016-04-14
Location : UK
View user profilehttps://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Wed 29 Jun - 10:06
Sleepingrain, the waste of resources is a problem with any system in which those who are in charge think they can improve things just by throwing money at it without looking at whether such changes are even necessary. Get rid of the side and you can put those resources into areas where they are actually needed, in effect improving public services using the same or fewer resources... it's about consulting people and streamlining where possible.

Part of the key to streamlining is to help keep prices low. One way to do this would be to increase genuine competition between companies and not allowing any one company to have more than 10% of any given market. Any company that gets too large should simply be split in half and made into two new ones. This would guard against the big boys conspiring to fix prices and pushing small and medium sized companies out of business, give everyone a chance to compete. An economy underpinned on this type of capitalism could work well.

Now, as for government and government spending, in order to keep the capitalist part of the economy afloat properly, taxes need to be reasonably low. So any services that the government is responsible for should be as streamlined as possible to avoid wasting tax money.

Take for instance our NHS, which is entirely paid for by taxpayers. One way to dramatically reduce the cost would be to cut the bureaucracy... believe it or not over half of the NHS budget is wasted on executives and other high powered people. Get rid of those overpaid bosses and the budget could be cut quite significantly. Another way to make savings could be to pass laws forbidding pharmaceutical companies from selling their drugs at more than triple the production costs. Do that and the cost of healthcare would plummet to less than half current levels. So in effect a combination of both these things would allow the NHS to run on half the money or less, whilst simultaneously providing a superior service with a wider range of affordable drugs being made available. Hell, you could even give people working in the NHS a significant pay rise and STILL spend far less than currently.

This is ONE example of the kinds of things that could be done to improve the economy and give better public services. Streamlining helps keep taxes low to stimulate the economy, and public services which are do what they should do without the extra costs.

A lot of people get stuck in the left/right paradigm believing those the only two options, but you CAN have the best of both worlds just by stepping outside the box and looking at a problems differently. So yes, libertarian with direct democracy when possible would be a good way to describe the kind of system I'd like to see. Take the best that both the right and the left have to offer whilst avoiding the pitfalls of both. It can be done if people just open their eyes and stop thinking they have to toe the party line all the time.

I understand both the right and the left well enough, I went from being a radical left teen to pretty far right in my 20s... disillusioned by both I now realize that there are other ways.

The whole system needs redesigning, starting from scratch. There is a major flaw in every major economy in the world. We live in a world based upon debt. Money is created not as a credit, but as a debt. Each new unit of currency created is a debt. This means that the amount of money in circulation at any given time is never enough to repay the debt. So more money has to be created (as a debt) to repay the outstanding balance. This is what drives inflation. If governments printed their own debt free money taxes could be radically slashed. Much of taxpayer money does not, contrary to belief, go on public services, it goes on repaying national debt. In this way the elite bankers steal the wealth of the world. It's pretty much daylight robbery and madness, but this is what happens in the world. To think that some people in the world starve to death and have no clean water all because their government cannot afford to pay for those things because most of it's money goes on payments to bankers.... loans on money that was created out of thin air as a debt... that is INSANE. We can still have a money based system if we want to, but it really does need to change drastically because the current system is quite simply unsustainable and has the world at the mercy of the bankers. I'd expect the whole stack of cards to come tumbling down by the weight of it's own bullshit on day, on a global scale. The meltdown would cause a rethink and get people to demand change in the way finances are run.
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts : 23
Join date : 2016-04-30
Location : Northern Europe
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Thu 30 Jun - 21:16
I was totally shocked. I can't understand the logic of the Leave side at all, or how they managed to get the majority behind their suicidal project. The British gutter press, which has shamelessly invented false smear stories about the EU for decades, is certainly partly to blame. Emotionally, the message is clear: Europeans are not welcome in England and Wales any more.

Immediately after the vote, reports began pouring about various hostilities to foreigners. Just one of many: a Finnish woman working at a pub in Wales wrote on Facebook how a customer refused to pay for his drink and told her that because she isn't British, American, Canadian or Australian she should leave the UK. Interesting that the guy was OK with people coming from much more far away, but not Europeans. The woman stressed that this guy was not an old drunk but a young man in a stylish business suit. (She had to get the manager to make him pay for the drink.)

All Europe will suffer, including the British who will lose much of their benefits of studying or working in Europe. The one relief is that Boris Johnson isn't going to become Prime Minister, at least now. He was one of the most notorious anti-EU liars when he was a journalist, and he has been known to be "creative" on other matters too. A man like that shouldn't lead a major country.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Fri 1 Jul - 9:49

An economic collapse would certainly have far-reaching implications. You're very much right about people getting trapped in a binary worldview, too. That politics have been somewhat more polarized as of late hasn't helped either!
A lot of countries have anti-trust laws and measures to break up monopolies. Suggesting to lower the bar to encompass large companies that aren't quite monopolies but don't have any real equal... it might work. They can still throw their considerable weight around at the current sizes. As for the banks, yes we're definitely at their mercy right now! it's going to be tough to dislodge that!

That's terrible that people are doing that Nemo, though in any large group there's going to be people who fall on the extreme end. It doesn't seem like the majority of the Leave side feels this way about people not from the Anglosphere, though it's hard to say without living in the UK personally.
Europe will probably take a hit, but the UK does have some right to self-determination. It'll face some problems too, at least in the immediate future, but most people would be willing to undergo hardship to retain their autonomy; that is likely the driving factor behind the Leave side. Now that it's done, hopefully the UK (and Europe too) will be able to make the best of it. Whether it was a good decision or not, there's opportunity for growth here on both sides.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 1017
Join date : 2016-04-14
Location : UK
View user profilehttps://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Fri 1 Jul - 10:54
Nemo, I hear what you're saying here, but racism isn't one of the reasons that the majority voted leave. That's not to say that some people didn't vote that way for racist reasons, but certainly for most leave voters it wouldn't have been the driving factor. It's terrible that some people behave this way towards foreign people, there is simply no excuse for it. They just come here for a better way of life, I don't blame the immigrants for this, I blame a succession of governments that have allowed far too many to move here and remain... resulting in there being not enough jobs to go around and lower wages. This lowers the standard of living for everyone, and adds to the burden of the public purse when too many cannot find employment.

I do not think it is suicidal for us to have left the EU, it's a sovereignty issue. We didn't need an EU for the majority of our history, and we don't need one now. The UK was putting far more money in than it was getting benefits back out. The remain people from within the EU itself simply didn't want to lose the financial contribution that the UK makes. The UK will be FAR better off financially once these problems get sorted out, granted it will take a few years, but I reckon most of the people who voted leave realize this.

Sleepingrain, the binary worldview is actually an artificial construct. It's like constantly offering somebody the choice of eating and apple and an orange with no alternative... eventually the person would think in terms of food being apples and oranges, especially if that is all they ever knew. In reality the choice of food available is far larger. The binary choice is very limiting. Same with politics, we're offered the choice of left and right, but more choices do exist if only people step outside the box and realize that. We're being systematically restricted by false binary modes of thinking peddled to us by the media. This seems obvious once you're already thinking outside the box, but when you're still in it, it's pretty hard to see... and THAT is how they get society, by trapping it in a bubble of perception that is small compared to the reality of what could be.
avatar
Admin
Posts : 649
Join date : 2016-05-21
Location : is a secret
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Fri 1 Jul - 22:42
Very true, it is an artificial construct; most of political theory seems to be like that.
but I'm preaching to the choir here!
avatar
Senior Member
Posts : 176
Join date : 2016-04-18
Age : 34
Location : U.S
View user profile

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

on Tue 12 Jul - 5:03
The more I read on this forum, the happier I am. I never thought I'd find a place where I'd meet so many like-minded individuals in one place.

I'd like to make a few points of my own: I'm generally all for free trade WITHIN nations, when it comes to international trade and immigration, you have to be more realistic. While it maybe true that there would a lot of economic benefit for bringing in low wage workers from around the world, for some at least, remember that you're trading more than just products and services in a true free trade world. You're also trading things like your culture, values and safety. Trading three great things for more of one great thing doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

Let us not forget the economic benefits of having those things like culture (think of the money made of Star Wars and hamburgers alone), values (family values means more productive, tax paying citizens, and liberty and freedom allows for more economic opportunity), and safety (it's very difficult to make money with criminals and terrorists killing and robbing citizens and destroying property). Sadly, there are many places that are not yet civilized. If they come here without any screening, our countries will become less civilized. I quite like civilization. We're best pals! Real chummy!

Jane, you are quite right about the control the banks have. It quite frankly terrifying. I plan to buy a lot of silver, a couple guns, and some good fishing gear. That way I might survive if there is a worldwide economic collapse.

Last point: Playing devil's advocate here. There is a flaw with your plan involving the restriction of of size for mass transit companies. Since the size of these companies are so restricted, there is little incentive for a talented, ambitious, hardworking executive pursue a career in mass transit. As a result, less talented and less hardworking executives will lead these companies, and the mass transit system become less efficient as a result. I'm not saying your idea is worse than what you currently have, but it's not perfect.

Just my two cents...
Sponsored content

Re: the UK has left the EU?!

View previous topicBack to topView next topic
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum