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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Sun 27 Aug - 18:22
I completely disagree. If somebody is an adult, and they are not suffering from a psychological condition which would impair their ability to make informed decisions, then the choice to change their sexual organs should be theirs alone. I don't think that transgendered people take the prospect of reassignment surgery lightly, and while it is a huge operation, it is NOT the same thing as circumcision or FGM (both inflicted upon minors who have no say in whether or not to go ahead with an unnecessary and painful operation WITHOUT ANAESTHETIC). In the case of someone who is transgendered, they feel as they've been born into the wrong body, so for them, the surgery is correcting a mistake.

To compare gender reassignment surgery to cannibalism is completely ludicrous, and very offensive to transgendered people. It is in fact the same level of bigotry shown towards us by many people. Have a little empathy would you. You don't have to be transgendered to support their choice (even if you cannot fully understand what they must have to go through). If we start attacking other sexual minorities, how does that do anything except further alienate potential allies? I doubt that they want your pity either, they want your understanding and your acceptance. I do not feel sorry for them, and although I don't know what they go through any more than a regular can understand the unique challeges of being a consang in todays world, I do support them and I try to understand and empathize. You must also understand that some trans people are ALSO consang, so why drive away some of our own?

Also the system does NOT promote it, it simply allows for it. Big difference. I can't recall anyone standing up and encouraging people to reassign their gender. To be honest, even if what you said is true, most cisgendered people would simply ignore it because they're happy with what biology gave them. If somebody encouraged me to reassign to be a man, I'd ignore it because I am quite happy being a woman, because I think and feel like a woman. If somebody tried to encourage you to reassign to be a woman, you'd likely have the same reaction, wouldn't you? Of course you would. The reason for this is because our brains are wired in the way that corresponds to our biological sex. People who are transgendered are wired as the opposite sex from their biological sex from birth, it is something they're born with, not something that can be influenced like clothing choice, hairstyle, and taste in music. Transgendered people did not choose to be transgendered, just as I did not choose to be consang, and gay people do not choose to be gay... people just are what they are, and this diversity should be accepted. Does it impact my life that somebody chooses to reassign their gender? Not in the slightest, so what right would I have to deny the validity of their decision? None.

The idea that these things can be influenced by society is very wrong, and dangerous. It is where prejudice begins, and even if you do not mean to hate on them (and I believe that you don't), the implication is that they can be changed, or should be changed. That in itself can be seen as potentially very transphobic. I do not want to insult you, but I think that we should think carefully before we write off another minority group just because we don't get it.
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Mon 28 Aug - 19:15
Mutilation is mutilation. Secondflight i can see what you mean

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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Tue 29 Aug - 10:52
I didn't expect to see such anti-LGBT views on this forum. I'm a straight ally and support all LGBT rights, including those of transgender people, and I agree with what Jane Doe said.

No one is asking you to applause people who are transgender or transexual people, and no one is asking you to change your gender or sex. In fact no one in the LGBT rights movement is promoting or pressuring or coercing anyone to change their gender or sex, people are simply fighting for the right to do so. The LGBT rights movement is about basic human rights, which includes the right over one's own body. The progress is on people gaining the right and the ability to change their gender and sex if they feel the need to do so. If someone needs to change their gender and sex to match the gender they most identify with and they have the money to do so, they should have the right to do that.

> Where's the difference with consented cannibalism, then ?

Cannibalism is when one person eats the other person, killing him or her. In the case of people who are transgender and transexual they recover from the operation just like any other surgery. People who change their sex are not harming anyone, they are simply having a surgery to change their sex.

The view that "I don't want to do that, I think it's gross or barbaric, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to do that either." Is the view of a bigot and is essentially what consanguinamorous people are up against right now. In this anti-transgender view it's "I don't want to change my gender or sex, I think it's gross or barbaric, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to do that either." while in the case of consanguinamory its "I don't want to be in a consensual loving adult relationship with my sister, I think it's gross or barbaric, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to do that either".

You don't need to applause it, just like you don't need to applause interracial marriage or gay marriage or women's right to vote or the abolition of slavery or anything else. All I ask of you is that you strive to treat others with compassion and understanding and accept that people have the right to their own bodies.

I'm a straight monogamous male ally of the LGBT rights, polyamory rights, and women's rights movements. I believe in equal rights and equal justice under law for everyone. I stand up for the rights of others because I hope one day they will stand up for my rights.
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Tue 29 Aug - 12:43
Thank you, Love is Love and Jane Doe, for speaking up for the rights of trans people. We recently had an a very sensitive and vulnerable introduction from the mother of a young trans woman, looking for support and understanding from the members of KS. I hope this new member knows that Second Flight's bigoted attitude is NOT representative of this community. Second Flight can hold whatever daft ideas he wants to, and I support his right to do so. But free speech is about vigorous exchange of ideas, not polite acquiescence. As an ally of LGBT+, I have the right, and duty, to call him out on the bigoted nonsense that he's spewing -- not for the first time, on this forum, by the way. If all cutting of flesh is mutilation, then one should oppose all forms of cosmetic/reconstructive surgery as well, including cleft lip and palate surgery, or skin grafting for burn victims. And dismissing a trans woman's severe gender dysphoria as psychological inconvenience is as callous a display of arrogance and ignorance as I have seen since -- well, since Second Flight's last bit of overt bigotry. If he's not down with the principles of consent and liberty, what is this guy doing here?
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Tue 29 Aug - 20:03
SecondFlight wrote:Yeah, an act isn't judged ONLY by its being consented or not.

True, it's also judged on whether it causes or prevents harm. Somebody having an operation to reassign their gender does not cause harm.

(to JaneDoe)
Circumcision is not barbaric just because of a lack of consent, it is also because of cutting through one's own flesh with no physiological disorder, purely out of one's own emotional state is by itself an evidence of insanity.

Thats NOT what we're talking about here. We're not talking about people self-harming with razor blades because they've had some kind of breakdown (in that case it would be insanity), we're talking about people who want to change their biological sex to match their gender identity.

Eating at your physical integrity is a very specific trait of psychosis and paranoia.

If we're talking about self-harm, that's right, but we're not talking about self-harm, we're talking about gender reassignment surgery, and that is a VERY different thing.

Besides, "being wired the opposite of your actual sex" is an ideology with no serious scientific studies proving it.

REALLY? Then you're not that good with a search engine are you, idiot. This took me about 20 seconds to find:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Should it be proved: look at how you never get back all you control over a cut finger, and you think we can do it perfectly with the most innerved organ in the whole body ?

I'm sure that the doctors who do these surgeries explain all possible risks to their patients. Like I have said before, if there is no mental illness present then the person should be allowed to choose to reassign their biological sex if it doesn't correspond to their gender identity.

I want a world where bodies (and nature) are sacred, in the full meaning of the term, and in which modifying it forcefully is only done for vital reasons... Not for psychological convenience.

Except that it isn't done for 'convenience', it's done in order for a person to feel whole and comfortable in their own body. You're just being vile about people that you clearly haven't taken any effort to understand.

Furthermore, if our bodies are sacred and we shouldn't alter them in any way... how about people who have laser corrective surgery for their eyes, people who have a tattoo, people who have piercings, even those of us who shave our unwanted body hair, go to the salon and get our hair cut and dyed or simply sit on the couch to trim our toenails? Are all these violations of our bodies and signs of mental illness? Okay, what about a flat chested woman who opts for a breast enlargement, or a woman with extremely large breasts which give her backache constantly due to the weight who goes for a reduction? Are they mentally ill as well? Get over yourself, who the hell are you to tell others what they may or may not do with their own bodies?

You are making a new God out of the notion of "Consent" or better "Liberty", and that I oppose.

Wrong again, we're simply respecting other peoples right to make choices about their own bodies.

As much as I would love seeing consanguinamory in my vicinity, if it means also letting thousands of fine young boys and girls being massacred in what they have most important, sorry, I can no longer be an ally.

Massacred? Do you even know what that word means? It means mass killing. What planet are you even on? Nobody is being killed here, or harmed, we're talking about an adult of sound mind making a choice about his or her own body. If you don't want to be an ally here any more, the don't, you're free to leave.

Not only it's a serious mistake, but condoning transexualism will even bear sad consequences for you a interest group

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Why should we exclude trans consangs? Division between sexual minorities is not in anyones interests, we stand for unity. Not everyone shares your disgusting prejudiced attitude, and I will not continue to tolerate it on the forum. If I see any more transphobia from you, I will ban you, is that understood?
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Tue 29 Aug - 23:03
hiya SecondFlight!
thank you for speaking your mind. And also, I appreciate your desire not to hurt anyone; your intent's important to me. Uhm, not to bother, but you weren't particularly tactful

okay so,
the forum isn't promoting (or persecuting) transgenderism, though if you feel otherwise please let me know and we can talk about it. Handicapping oneself would reduce your independence; this wouldn't apply as much to rich people, but does distinguish it from changing genders (which doesn't have that effect).
Asexuals don't necessarily feel 'genderless'. Not sure if that's off-topic or not, but felt worth mentioning. I hope that's okay!

Aren't there studies? I've read articles about 'phantom limb pain', which happens when people lose limbs in accidents. Your body's inner map believes your limb's still there, which isn't pleasant. Transgenders aren't so different, and don't usually experience phantom pain after surgery (because their map's different). And MRI scans show transgender brains resemble their self-identified gender. Jane posted a link but I don't think that's the only study. If you've proof that these studies aren't valid, please let me know.

Whether a physician's chosen their career out of altruism or something less noble is anyone's guess. So long as they're not violating medical & moral procedure, physicians shouldn't be prevented from pursuing their personal interests. If a surgeon is purely in it for money but saves lives, all we can do is encourage them to seek personal growth.

Perhaps saving lives doesn't seem related, but it is. Suicide rate among pre-operative transgenders isn't small. Depression isn't uncommon when you're not allowed to live your life as who you are. Accidental death too, if people can't afford surgery & attempt it themselves. It's not so much psychosis & paranoia (or psychological convenience) as it is desperation. There aren't medications or therapies which can treat gender dysphoria, either.
I'm not sure what you meant by your 'severed finger' analogy; if you could please re-explain that to me?

Why do you want a world where bodies & nature are 'sacred', as you perceive it? I hope I'm not rude by asking!

"...massacred in what they have most important"
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but do you mean someone's "most important trait" is their sex organs & reproductive ability? and why is condoning transexualism a serious mistake? what consequences? I'm sorry I know I'm full of questions, but they feel important for me to ask you. I tried making my reply not so long & everyone else already posted some really good points

If you don't feel you can be an ally, I understand. The forums may not be for you. My beliefs are different than yours, but I don't resent you. Hopefully we can find understanding, somewhere. If not, peace be with you & keep safe.

* * *

for Willendorfer
thank you for supporting free thought & speech, and speaking your mind too *hug*
As for why he's here, supporting consanguinamory doesn't mean he supports all minorities. I'm not sure his feelings regarding consent & liberty, like where he feels a line should be drawn. Hopefully he'll clear that up. Though I think he knows about cosmetic/reconstructive surgery & probably doesn't approve
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Wed 30 Aug - 21:38
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SecondFlight, I didn't want to respond to this post but I feel I have a duty to, since as usual you are attacking something you don't remotely understand and I happen to be part of that group of people you are attacking.

I could do a run down addressing all the points you brought up but I don't see the use of talking to a person who clearly doesn't get how mutuality works. Despite all the evidence out there for medical transition being a positive thing for many trans people and despite all the actual trans people that can SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, you insist on knowing what's best for them. So that says it all. Conversations are for people that understand they can't speak for another's experience... not for the likes of you.

I simply wanted to say that as a trans person and as someone who has had one surgery, my surgery was an all round POSITIVE thing for me. I wanted it from the moment I heard there was such a thing. It helped my mental health a little, and the only reason it doesn't help more is because this world is still full of hateful people like you.

Talking about bodies being sacred must be really great for someone who has never felt a TOTAL disconnect from theirs since they were a child. If people cannot change their physical reality to accommodate their psychological experience, then what use is there in being alive?? The inner sense of self is where the identity is. If an individual cannot express that in their reality, is it a wonder that they have depression and suicidal thoughts? The body doesn't run our lives... our minds do. And if the mind is unsatisfied, the individual has the right to change whatever it is that they are not happy with (as long as it is theirs). People like you think you are saving lives but you are so wrong. You are offering CONDITIONAL love, which is not love, in return for the suppression of someone's very core.

Do you even have a sense of gender? Can you imagine having to live life being told you must live as a gender you don't identify with? That you must play roles and be called by words that do not feel right to you?

Minorities are a part of nature and they come in various forms. The fact that you can't see the difference between a system creating an artificial sense of "norm" and an individual's raw experience shows the limits of your own intelligence and critical thinking ability.

I suffer with suicidal thoughts on a regular basis. You know what helps? Certainly not transphobia and attitudes like yours. What helps me hold on is knowing that there are SOME people in this world that are trying to understand this experience and be kind despite the fact that they don't know what it's like... I would never have chosen this. I would have chosen to be born in the body that actually matches my mind. This experience is not like being gay.. I'm sure some can make peace with being trans but I can't. I would give anything to be in the body my mind longs to be in.

Smarter people than you have already studied transgenderism and continue to try to do what's best for those going through gender dysphoria... those people are not harming anyone. They are the only ones giving any kind of relief to trans people. Obviously medical transition is not for everyone and people should think about it long and hard before doing it, but whether or not it is beneficial to them is not for YOU to decide. They are making the decisions they are making for their own mental health, while dealing with something that you CANNOT know unless you are going through it.

Lastly, all oppression is connected. So if you seriously think that a minority can win rights without any support or alliances with other minorities, see how far you get.

You are a truly disgusting human being bordering on a sociopath, and I'm not going to sugar coat that for you. Free speech doesn't mean people should have to sit back and accommodate willful ignorance.
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Thu 31 Aug - 8:39
what i don't understand is that you come on to this forum, which is a meeting place for people who have to live their lives in secret or be persecuted/prosecuted for the way they live their life. very few people are allies/cheerleaders. they are generally the person who is actually the person going through an incest relationship or some lbgt life. how can someone who goes to the trouble to join this forum and express views on one subject, be hypocritical when it comes to other aspects of life. generally that behavior is set aside for the religious or some other people who live life with narrow blinders. live life my way or burn in hell mentality. i tend to believe that you are not here having professed any truths about your life or have a subversive directive contrary to what most of us are here trying to accomplish.

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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Thu 31 Aug - 11:11
> and of the LGBTIQ-I don't know what- . First, that about all of them are mentally sick

This person has now expanded his attack and is calling all LGBTIQ mentally sick, which is hateful and absurd. I believe this person is either a bigot, a troll, or both. He has not identified as consanguinamorous and has not said he is, was, or wants to be in consanguinamorous relationship. It's unclear to me what he is trying to do to support the consang movement, and seems more intent in tearing down sex, sexual, and gender minorities, including consang people who are LGBT. He has the right to express his opinion, but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate such views here. He can find a homophobe and transphobe forum to express those views in. I believe this forum should be a place that is supportive of all consang people, including LGBT consang people, and this person's anti-LGBT views are not welcome here.

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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Thu 31 Aug - 12:01
So you don't believe LGBT people are mentally sick (even though that's exactly what you wrote before you made your previous post less offensive), you just believe the "LGBT lobby", as in LGBT people who are fighting for equal rights and equal justice under law, are mentally sick. And you also still think transgender people are mentally sick. Glad we got that cleared up. Please leave this forum. I'm sure you can find a more relevant forum to express your anti-LGBT views.

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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Thu 31 Aug - 17:59
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
SecondFlight is now banned.
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Thu 31 Aug - 20:54
Thanks! You made the right call.
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

on Fri 1 Sep - 11:15
thanks for the removal.
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Re: transgenderism/transexualism

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