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Latest school shooting.

on Fri 16 Feb - 1:29
I knew some of the kids killed. I'm heartbroken. It happened not too far from where we live. My dad hugged me a little closer tonight. I dont know what the answer is but I knew some of the teachers and students who were killed. pale Sad


Last edited by CelesChere on Fri 16 Feb - 5:01; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Fri 16 Feb - 2:32
I’m so sorry. Sad

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Fri 16 Feb - 3:37
Are you okay?
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Fri 16 Feb - 10:02
I’ve been reading the news articles about the shooting. Everyone knew that the shooter was a ticking time bomb and no one did anything. That ain’t right.

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Fri 16 Feb - 10:57
sleepingrain wrote:Are you okay?
we are unharmed. Neither of us were there Wednesday when it happened. We both lost people and we're both seeing how quickly one of us can be removed from our lives.

Unowen17 wrote:I’ve been reading the news articles about the shooting. Everyone knew that the shooter was a ticking time bomb and no one did anything. That ain’t right.

UN


I cant imagine how frustrated and sad those families must be. People gave to take these threats seriously.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Fri 16 Feb - 11:40
Glad to hear you're okay, CC. It's never fun when friends die, even worse when they die in something so senseless and twisted. The closest thing in my own life was 9/11.

My sympathies to you and your dad.

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sat 17 Feb - 2:32
it's good you're unharmed. Those families... I don't know.
I didn't know people knew the shooter was unbalanced.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sat 17 Feb - 23:27
If he was known to be unbalanced, how the hell did he get access to a gun?

Celes, I'm sorry to hear that you knew some of the people killed, that's a mind job in itself to come to terms with it. *sends hugs*
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 11:12
Jane Doe wrote:If he was known to be unbalanced, how the hell did he get access to a gun?

I'll PM you, Jane, because I don't want to open up a can of worms on this thread that we'll never get closed.

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 12:26
Jane Doe wrote:If he was known to be unbalanced, how the hell did he get access to a gun?

Celes, I'm sorry to hear that you knew some of the people killed, that's a mind job in itself to come to terms with it. *sends hugs*



Everyone knew the teachers who died. I didn't know the kids who died that well though some of them were the brothers and sisters of people who are my friends.

I have a concealed weapons license and my dad wants me to start carrying.

And UO I think this is a time to open that can of worms. If we continue to be too afraid to talk about this then we will never solve this problem. This is the off topic forum so it wont derail the other threads. Even so I put the part of my post that could be construed as political in spoiler tags. If you don't want to go there don't.

Background checks in Florida:
Because of how background checks work in this country. They check your criminal history. And then there's a list of things that bar you from owning a gun but not all crimes.

The physical inability to handle a firearm safely.
A felony conviction (unless civil and firearm rights have been restored by the convicting authority).
Having adjudication withheld or sentence suspended on a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence unless three years have elapsed since probation or other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.
A conviction for a misdemeanor crime of violence in the last three years.
A conviction for violation of controlled substance laws or multiple arrests for such offenses.
A record of drug or alcohol abuse.
Two or more DUI convictions within the previous three years.
Being committed to a mental institution or adjudged incompetent or mentally defective.
Failing to provide proof of proficiency with a firearm.
Having been issued a domestic violence injunction or an injunction against repeat violence that is currently in force.
Renouncement of U.S. citizenship.
A dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
Being a fugitive from justice.

He did none of the things on the above list. So even tho people knew he was sorta messed up nothing was on his actual criminal or medical record to flag him and he was never committed. Even if you are committed sometimes the hospital wont put it on the discharge papers. A friend of mine overdosed in a suicide attempt. They held him for 24 hours and then released him but the discharge papers said overdose not suicide attempt. He can still legally buy a gun.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 12:31
Okay, CC. My $0.02.

I do not advocate gun confiscation or repeal of the Second Amendment.

In this case, the early-warning system worked great, but nothing was done. The warnings were not taken seriously by the authorities.

What should have happened is this. When the alarm bells started going off, the prosecutors should have sought a court order certifying the creep as mentally unfit to posses guns. And a temporary restraining order to immediately search for and impound those guns.

TROs aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got, unless we want to rewrite 2A. Which I do not.

It's about damn time that we started treating these cases as domestic terrorism.

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 13:21
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Unowen17 wrote:Okay, CC. My $0.02.

I do not advocate gun confiscation or repeal of the Second Amendment.

In this case, the early-warning system worked great, but nothing was done. The warnings were not taken seriously by the authorities.

What should have happened is this. When the alarm bells started going off, the prosecutors should have sought a court order certifying the creep as mentally unfit to posses guns. And a temporary restraining order to immediately search for and impound those guns.

TROs aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got, unless we want to rewrite 2A. Which I do not.

It's about damn time that we started treating these cases as domestic terrorism.

UN
I agree with everything here. I'm torn on the legality of Semi Auto Rifles. On the one hand we actually have an AR-15, on the other these things are mowing people down. 17 the other day, 500 in Las Vegas, 50 in Orlando, 20 in Colorado and on and on.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 18:28
As you know, “semiauto” does not imply that it’s a machine gun. One bullet fired and one casing ejected for every trigger pull.

The only firearm I own that is not a semiauto is a Browning O/U shotty. They’ve been around since the early 1900s. And I’ll bet your CCW is a semiauto of some type.

A lot of media types try to confuse semiautos with machine guns in the public mind. They do manage to bamboozle a lot of ignorant people.

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 21:08
Unowen17 wrote:As you know, “semiauto” does not imply that it’s a machine gun. One bullet fired and one casing ejected for every trigger pull.

The only firearm I own that is not a semiauto is a Browning O/U shotty. They’ve been around since the early 1900s. And I’ll bet your CCW is a semiauto of some type.

A lot of media types try to confuse semiautos with machine guns in the public mind. They do manage to bamboozle a lot of ignorant people.

UN


I know what semiautos are we have an AR-15 in the house. Thats why I specified semiauto rifle. Thing about the semi auto rifles you get a 9mm and you have 17 rounds max on a glock. Your standard clip on an ar-15 is 30 rounds and its a higher velocity more lethal round then a 9mm is. You can get 50 round or even 100 round drums for an ar-15 put a bump stock on it and it now is basically a machine gun. Larger caliber handguns with more lethality also have smaller magazine capacities. A .45 is like 13 rounds on a glock or around 9 I think on a 1911.  You wont be able to pop off as many rounds with a hand gun and they wont be as lethal for the higher magazine calibers they wont have the range or accuracy of a rifle. You can't shoot 900 people in 10 minutes from the 32nd floor with a hand gun, shotgun or a bolt action rifle.

Shotguns are better for home defense then semi auto rifles
Bolt Actions are more then enough, or in some cases, better for competition shooting and hunting. Your not going to shoot a deer you want to eat 5 times in a minute with a semi auto rifle your gonna try and land one kill shot.
I'm just not sure anyone needs it. I know no one "Needs it"

Like I said when I first posted this I don't know what the answer is but its high time we started seriously asking the question "what can we do about this?"

I think its time to get rid of bump stocks we really don't need them and honestly... I think I would support a ban on clips above 10 rounds I just don't think anyone needs more.

I don't actually conceal carry I have the permit but I don't carry.

Just as a large disclaimer. I'm not angry or trying to attack anyone. I still respect the 2a.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Sun 18 Feb - 21:33
Glad you're ok. Regarding gun control I oppose it, people should be allowed to conceal carry a firearm, nobody has the right to take away your property. As a human being you have the right to defend yourself and making guns illegal isn't going to keep criminals from obtaining them, vehicles, bombs, baseball bats, hammers, ect can be used as weapons and I don't hear anyone saying we should ban them.

https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/gun-control-bigger-threat-mass-murderers/

https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/gun-control-elitist-wrong/

https://www.fff.org/2017/06/20/bizarre-mindset-gun-controllers/

https://mises.org/wire/shootings-why-dont-schools-have-better-security

https://mises.org/blog/5-tricks-gun-control-advocates-play

https://mises.org/library/fallacy-gun-control







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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 0:30
The gun laws here in the UK are extremely tight. Select few people are allowed a gun: specially trained cops (only riot police, not regular police - regular police do not carry guns but are armed with tasers and pepper spray for emergencies), farmers (for the purposes of culling nuisance numbers of badgers and foxes)... and that's about it. Apart from that only criminals would have them, and people who have inherited antique weapons and not handed them in. The police did a drive not that long ago where people could hand in such weapons no questions asked, and most of what they got was from WW2 and before. Some of these weapons will probably end up as museum pieces. Much of the gun crime on our streets (which is uncommon in itself, knives tend to be the weapon of choice) is from antique weapons which have been modified.

I've never held a gun, the closest I've come to that was a paintball rifle, which is a type of air rifle adapted to propell the paintballs which are large pellets of about 1.5cm diameter and designed to break and mark the target with paint on contact. By the rules you have to wear safety goggles to protect your eyes, and you have to wear an overall to protect your clothes from the paint. It's good fun, but it did make me think about guns in general. I mean, if you're hit by a paintball you're out of the game and you're going to get a ring shaped bruise where it hit you... but in real life, if that was an actual bullet you'd be dead. I wasn't the most accurate shot at paintball, but it did make me sit and think about it afterwards, how easy real guns would make it for people to kill. Even if guns were legal here, I still wouldn't want one in my house, especially with a child to look after.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 3:08
To me, US gun violence doesn't feel purely 'technical'. Like, there's a culture, or some systemic problem. Restrictions may change things, but would it be enough? it's just, there's people like Timothy McVeigh. He never shot anybody. He didn't need firearms to do horrible things. I'm not saying "guns don't make violence more efficient", that wouldn't be true. If we don't find a root cause though, how much would it affect determinedly violent people? Las Vegas's gunman planned his violence out too. He brought multiple rifles for when his barrels overheated. He couldn't have sustained his violence otherwise. That's just wrong.
You're probably right about bump stocks. They don't have RPMs like machine guns, but I'm not sure what niche they're filling that's so important. Like you say, hunters wouldn't need that. There was a shop-owner during Los Angeles's riots (1990s I think), and they held off a violent mob with an assault rifle. I don't remember if it was fully automatic.... I don't think it was, but maybe.
My understanding of the US Second Amendment implies it should be for organising militia should there be tyranny in power. But bump stocks wouldn't help with that either.

Don't they manufacture thirty round extended magazines? like, for pistols? I think I've seen fifty round drum attachements too.
Reduced magazine capacities would be riskier for self-defence too, at least for pistols. Ten rounds may seem like overkill, but most people don't hit their attacker with one shot. Police officers too, they can empty twenty rounds and not hit anything. Some of it may be deficient training, but some of it's combat stress. American police officers have told me they wouldn't carry less than fifteen round magazines to troubled neighborhoods, because their experiences told them that's what they needed. But it varies from country to country too. Like Jane mentioned, the UK's police are way better trained. I'm not sure if their feelings are similar.

What bothers me is, no matter what we do, people keep hurting each other. It's just not right. How can we expect their families to accept "we did our best"? even when we did do our best? maybe some would understand, but it's a hollow feeling.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 3:50
I’ve been in a police shooting simulator, just once, and it was an enlightening experience. You’re right, Sleepy, plinking at a paper target is nothing like trying to bring down an armed attacker. You won’t get efficient shot placement under stress unless you train for it.

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 19:54
As a pacifist anarchist, I'm all in favour of a society without guns. But let's start the disarmament with the most dangerous gun users: the police and the military.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 20:37
Willendorfer wrote:As a pacifist anarchist, I'm all in favour of a society without guns. But let's start the disarmament with the most dangerous gun users: the police and the military.

You go first for the disarming part, Will. Smile

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 22:42
sleepingrain wrote:To me, US gun violence doesn't feel purely 'technical'. Like, there's a culture, or some systemic problem. Restrictions may change things, but would it be enough? it's just, there's people like Timothy McVeigh. He never shot anybody. He didn't need firearms to do horrible things. I'm not saying "guns don't make violence more efficient", that wouldn't be true. If we don't find a root cause though, how much would it affect determinedly violent people? Las Vegas's gunman planned his violence out too. He brought multiple rifles for when his barrels overheated. He couldn't have sustained his violence otherwise. That's just wrong.
You're probably right about bump stocks. They don't have RPMs like machine guns, but I'm not sure what niche they're filling that's so important. Like you say, hunters wouldn't need that. There was a shop-owner during Los Angeles's riots (1990s I think), and they held off a violent mob with an assault rifle. I don't remember if it was fully automatic.... I don't think it was, but maybe.
My understanding of the US Second Amendment implies it should be for organising militia should there be tyranny in power. But bump stocks wouldn't help with that either.

Don't they manufacture thirty round extended magazines? like, for pistols? I think I've seen fifty round drum attachements too.
Reduced magazine capacities would be riskier for self-defence too, at least for pistols. Ten rounds may seem like overkill, but most people don't hit their attacker with one shot. Police officers too, they can empty twenty rounds and not hit anything. Some of it may be deficient training, but some of it's combat stress. American police officers have told me they wouldn't carry less than fifteen round magazines to troubled neighborhoods, because their experiences told them that's what they needed. But it varies from country to country too. Like Jane mentioned, the UK's police are way better trained. I'm not sure if their feelings are similar.

What bothers me is, no matter what we do, people keep hurting each other. It's just not right. How can we expect their families to accept "we did our best"? even when we did do our best? maybe some would understand, but it's a hollow feeling.
I agree there is a cultural component to all this. If we look at Japan while trhey do have strict gun control they have a low crime rate period. its cultural their culture is based off respect, politeness and the harmonious functioning of society. these are ingrained into them and as a result they have a very low crime rate. Since most murders aren't perpetrated with a gun you might thin some of those numbers would be comparable to US numbers. They aren't even close. They just aren't killing people not with guns, knives, swords hammers nothing. We are violent. I do think that if we took all the guns away (Which I don't support) We would still have high murder rates. Maybe not AS high but murders of passion will still be committed with the nearest improvised weapon or with their hands as they are today.

Willendorfer wrote:As a pacifist anarchist, I'm all in favor of a society without guns. But let's start the disarmament with the most dangerous gun users: the police and the military.
Honestly. this is pure fantasy. Take away the police and the violent and dangerous people all over this country will run amok. We are nowhere near being able to make that work. Just not even close. The police are a necessary evil and honestly most cops I've met are good people and I deal with them a lot in my BJJ classes.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Mon 19 Feb - 23:30
Truth is, if somebody is hell bent on committing mass murder, if guns aren't available they'll find some other method. Home made bombs and going berzerk with knives tend to be a favourite in countries where there are strict gun laws (such as here in the UK). We won't get rid of violence until we find out not just what causes some people to turn homicidal, but find effective ways of preventing that in the first place. In a lot of cases it's people with serious mental health problems, in which case they should probably have been put into psychiatric care if it was known that they was a danger to others. What baffles me about this school shooting is that the offender was known to the FBI and yet they did NOTHING to stop this tragedy. What the hell is the point of having a watch list if they either aren't watching or aren't acting on whatever they observe?

While I'm all for some better gun regulation in the USA, in terms of not letting people who are clearly disturbed from having access to firearms, I just know it won't solve the problem of violence in general. Look at the 7/7 terrorist incident in London, and the more recent attack on Manchester Arena last year.... those offenders did not need firearms, they used bombs. In those two cases it was Islamic extremism (which in itself could be considered a mental illness by brainwashing), but people can become violent for all kinds of reasons, whether it be their circumstances or ideology. I think some of it is also down to psychopathy, most people have an inbuild part of themselves which stops them from hurting others deliberately. People without this fail safe don't think twice about it.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Tue 20 Feb - 1:29
Jane, I couldn’t agree more. You have some excellent insights. I wonder how many people across the pond also think the same way?

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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Tue 20 Feb - 19:04
I feel "a society without guns" wouldn't necessarily be bad, but only if everybody chose it. If it has to be enforced, it won't be possible. Maybe it's pure fantasy; shouldn't we have ideals worth aspiring to?
My experiences with police officers are mixed. They're people; not a one is wholly good, or bad. Their profession attracts some types more than others, but not necessarily rotten individuals.
That being said, there have been places where there was no police, and people were fine. My sister would know more about this, I think. Something about an economic crisis in South America? and some other places too.
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Re: Latest school shooting.

on Tue 20 Feb - 22:26
Rain, you've got a good point there about choice. Like I said, removing the guns by force would not prevent violence as a whole (and wouldn't actually stop gun crime altogether it would only push it more underground). In an ideal world nobody would want to use a gun for anything other than target shooting, but unfortunately the world we live in isn't ideal. The best that can be done really is keeping guns away from people who are a danger to themselves and others, probably easier said than done. The only thing that's going to prevent violence as a whole would be people choosing not to use violence. I can't see that happening any time soon though, it's a rather unpleasant side of human nature.

We also have to remember that some people carry weapons because they're afraid, they feel that they need it in order to feel safe. That's pretty sad actually if people live in places which are really that dangerous. It means that the police aren't doing their job properly in those areas.
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