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Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 4:13
How many of the consang community would have their child circumcised, I wonder? I know that a high percentage of marriages in the middle-east are consanguineous, with cousin marriage being an old tradition, as well as circumcision, both customs being almost obligatory.

Can you imagine the pain that children suffered during the operation before the invention of anesthetics?

I have read articles written by (Jewish) researchers that claim there are health benefits from circumcision, such as fewer sexually transmitted diseases are transmitted, but even if that were true ( and I suspect it is not) why would young babies and children under the age of 18 benefit from circumcision when they are not meant to be having sex anyway. Why can't young children be left 'unscathed' and adults over 18 choose to be circumcised or not?
Another (Jewish ) researcher claims the government will face billions more in health care costs if the rate of circumcisions declines by just 1%!

Why is circumcision so high in the USA? Do religious fanatics run the show? "Morris and his colleagues found the circumcision rate in newborns has declined from 83 percent in the 1960s to 77 percent in 2010. (The overall rate among U.S. males age 14 to 59 is 81 percent, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.) https://www.google.com.au/search?client=opera&q=rate+of+circumcision++in+USA&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Could it be that there were a lot of doctors and corporations in the USA who profit from this small operation that has so many (unproven) health benefits that the AMA in Australia have organized "Cosmetic circumcision for newborn males is currently banned in all Australian public hospitals, South Australia being the last state to adopt the ban in 2007; the procedure was not forbidden from being performed in private hospitals?
We have heard that any kind of surgery in the USA costs an arm and leg so is circumcision a rort at cost of the taxpayer, ( and at a cost to psychological health of American boy children?) "According to the National Center for Health Statistics, the U.S. was just shy of 4 million babies being born in 2015"
"On MDsave, the cost of an Adult Circumcision is $2,975 but "The cost of newborn circumcision while the baby is in the hospital is relatively low, between $200 and $400. Let's say a child circumcision costs US$300.
4 million babies @ $300 per operation, x 77% = US$924,000,000.
Of course that is only the 'marginal' amount that is added to the cost of the childbirth in a hospital. But it would certainly help to lift the take-home pay of certain doctors. "Johnson, the University of Michigan professor of obstetrics and gynecology, observes that the procedure is “highly remunerative” for the pediatricians at his hospital.

“I think the professional charge in our state is somewhere between $150-200,” he says. “That’s real money if you can do four or five circumcisions in an hour.” In states where Medicaid does not cover the practice, rates have fallen fast."
https://qz.com/885018/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-the-us/

( a good article to read, and much better than mine:-)



The Jewish story goes along the lines that God told Abraham to start circumcising boys and so the Jews keep the tradition as a way of marking themselves as being different from non-Jews. However, the Egyptians had been practicing circumcision long before Abraham, and Abraham did have an Egyptian girl as a servant, who could have given him the idea.

The problem is that we have been conditioned to trust, admire, respect and believe in those people who speak with distinguished voices, wear expensive suits, are doctors and professionals and we expect they will have the highest ethical and moral standards, and the best educations that money can buy. We wouldn't think they could be motivated by anything like greed for money and personal status. Well we might not all be so naive, but many just assume doctors have our best interests at heart.

I was nearly circumcised once when I was a child. I am so glad I wasn't. All I can say is - it was a near miss.
I feel as sorry for those poor blokes whose parents got them circumcised as I do for the women who had it done to them. What a betrayal of trust and a violation by one's family and society! The victims and perpetrators might say 'This is just our way of doing things! This is our cultural tradition! This is our religious rites! What can one say in reply? It is not their fault they were born into a vicious circle of control and controlling, a social servomechanism. They are just following orders. It is not a crime to slice off part of your child's body.. but it should be.


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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 10:24
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I think circumcising children is wrong. If someone wants to have it done as an adult then it's their body and their choice, but I disagree with doing it to children who have no say in the matter. As for the matter of sexually transmitted disease, that's spread by unprotected sex with someone who is infected, being circumcised does not guard against such infections. Circumcision is done for one reason and one reason only, to reduce sexual pleasure in both sexes. In the case of women, many who are circumcised are never able to feel any pleasure from sex. Kiddies genitals should be left well alone.
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 11:06
I agree with you on all counts. United Nations and US law forbids circumcision on girls. But if nearly 80% of men in USA have this operation done to them as children, meaning they are permanently denied as much pleasure (women have the advantage of being able to have multiple orgasms ) could this mean that most American men are going to either compensate for reduced sexual gratification in some other way or feel very frustrated?
It is strange that a country that seems to have a market dedicated to profiting from the commodification of sex, goes to such extremes to deprive men of the ability to enjoy it? Or is circumcision a twisted way that society sadistically forces men to pay a higher price and wait a longer time for sexual gratification. We wonder at all the gun violence rape and Harvey Weinsteins in the US. Could it be that circumcision is a lot more 'evil' than we think?
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 18:09
ONe we don;t use any pain killer on babies when we do it, so many babies pass out from the pain. Second it started in the US to stop boys from masterbating, and DR. Kellogg wanted done on them as soon as they are born so the child and parents would think of it as normal and no one would think of it as wrong or that something was missing. Yes there is money involved in doing this, but it is not like how most people think it not the doctors making money it is the company that makes the device used on the operation. Fourth the most recent study either of us could find put the rate of death from the operation at 1 in 10,000. Both of us are very glad they we were not mutilated as babies.
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 21:26
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 21:41
Here's an article showing that even some Jewish families are now rejecting circumcision of their baby boys:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/well/family/cutting-out-the-bris.html
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 24 Oct - 21:49
Thanks. I am aware there are other groups trying to get the laws changed on this but they are facing similar problems we are with rusted on attitudes among politicians and powerful vested interests.
"We mustn't interfere with religious freedom." There must be a petition we can sign somewhere!
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Fri 26 Oct - 1:57
When researching this subject earlier I discovered this excellent organization. (I like the quote by Montaigne at the top of the website)
'Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know."

https://circumcision.org thanks to a letter by one of the founders Ronald Goldman who sent a letter:

"Most people don't know that circumcision is traumatic, disrupts parent-infant bonding, and has no proven medical benefit. It can result in serious complications, has long-term sexual and psychological consequences, and causes conflicts with maternal instinct and ethical principles. We need to tell them! Please share this message!



The Circumcision Resource Center is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization formed to educate expectant parents, professionals, men, Jews, and others about circumcision. We have saved many infants from the trauma of circumcision.



IMPORTANT NEWS

A benefactor offers to match contributions made before the end of the year!

The Center is supported by tax-deductible donations from people like you. With more resources we can reach more people. With the matching offer, we can receive DOUBLE your contribution! Please be generous and visit http://www.circumcision.org/donations.htm. (Multiple donations gratefully accepted.) Thanks and happy holidays!



Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.

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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 31 Oct - 19:59
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I'm a little late, but any sort of surgical or cosmetic alteration to a child that doesn't need it makes me livid (this includes """""fixing""""" intersex babies, FGM, circ and ear piercing).

Any supposed "benefits" to circumcision can be attained through basic hygiene and safe sex.

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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 31 Oct - 20:07
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Also, I realise that FGM and MGM (circ) are far different in terms of risks, but the fact that we allow girls to have genital integrity and not give boys that same right seems extremely sexist to me.

I'm so glad that I'm from the UK, where it's rarely done outside of religious reasons, but "religious freedom" is not an excuse to cut a kid's genitals up (many Muslims practice FGM, but it's still illegal here).

I'm sad Iceland's proposed criminalisation didn't go through.

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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 31 Oct - 20:40
SandyKandy, I agree that the law is sexist, children of both sexes deserve to keep their genitals intact and be allowed to make that type of decision when they're legal adults if they wish to modify anything for religious reasons. Personally, I think that circumcision would be far less popular were this the case. I also think that intersex children should be left alone, they can choose when they're adults if they'd prefer to have a surgery and possibly hormone treatments to make them male or female, or to remain as nature made them. Ultimately, it boils down to one simple principal... people should have absolute authority over their own bodies. Whenever somebody forces a child to have a surgery agaist their will, or when they're too young to understand what is happening to them, they're violating their rights. Whichever way you look at it, it's wrong.

This said, I completely disagree with you on the ear piercing thing. While I think it's wrong to do that to infants because let's face it, toddlers aren't the most hygeinic members of the human race and they're too young to understand it anyway... I do think that once a child has reached an age where they understand what ear piercing is and they decide that they want it, then that's okay. I had mine done the first time when I was 8 and never regretted it, in fact I had them done for a second time at 12, and a third time at 14. Nobody forced me into having it done, it was entirely my choice and my parents were happy enough about it. It's not in the same category as unnecessary genital surgeries, for a start, it does not impair function in any way, I've yet to hear of a person becoming deaf because they got their ears pierced. Secondly, so long as it's kept clean during the healing process (which is about 4-6 weeks) there is only a low probability of any complications (such as the site becoming infected). Lastly, the pain from ear piercing is very short lived, it only hurts for a few seconds.
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Wed 31 Oct - 20:48
I apologise. I should have clarified that ear piercing is only an issue to me when it's done on a child that's too young to understand. I have no issue with older children voluntarily going through it. I just think that it should be their choice to make, otherwise it's wrong. Even if the pain is short lived, it would be cosmetically altering someone's body when they can't consent.

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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Thu 1 Nov - 6:31
Hi. I agree with what others have said. I found this petition which has some more shocking information. I am going to sign it. I hope others do too and pass it on.

https://www.change.org/p/it-is-time-to-stop-the-circumcision-of-non-consenting-individuals-and-the-trafficking-in-human-infant-body-parts
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Re: Circumcision - Individualism or Exclusivism?

on Thu 1 Nov - 8:01
Sorry folks. I did not realise the petition was closed. These Change.org petitions get closed automatically after one year, and if you are not told about it, you don't know they can be re-opened. I'll will try and contact the author Dr Paul Tinari, who was interviewed here: (The church has a lot of answering to do!)
https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/mvpmzp/forcible-circumcision-turned-this-man-into-an-anti-circumcision-activist
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